Listen to hear Michelle and Dr Josephine chat about how we can encourage more women into ultra-running, and secondly, mental strategies to improve performance in long distance running.
The podcast covers:
– barriers into ultrarunning affecting women
– how we can achieve gender parity in ultra-running
– setting effective goals
– preparing body and mind for an ultra
– strategies for dealing with tough moments in a race, such as mantras and visualisation
– tips for dealing effectively with panic attacks if they happen during a race
– Dr Josie’s website is www.performanceinmind.co.uk
Links to listen:
Show transcript:
00:00.00
ukrunchat
Hi Josie thank you so much for joining us on the Uk Run Chat Podcast today would you like to I mean you you are a regular kind of we we regularly see you on the uk run chat community but would you like to just introduce yourself to our listeners here.
00:15.38
Josie Perry
Sure I’m yeah and Josie I’m a sports psychologist and a runner. Um I’ve been running I worked out for 20 years this year I I got up to marathon distance as as the max my body can cope with. And but I love racing and I love as a sports psychologist working with runners. Um, so I do lots of 1 to 1 work trying to get athletes to enjoy their races a bit more to get the most out of themselves and I do lots of workshops with different run clubs and different groups of people. Um, and I write books. So my latest is called the 10 pillars of success and it looks at 10 characteristics that can really help you make life more successful and each characteristic is brought to life and by someone fairly well known that that can really talk about that so we have lots of runners in that book. Have Damien Hall um and liy gossage who if anyone was following the spine a couple of weeks ago we have seen them both doing brilliantly and and we have Dane Kelly Holmes in there as well talking about how important it was in her career to have a sense of belonging.
01:23.93
ukrunchat
Yeah, oh it sounds fantastic I’ve yeah I’ve actually got one of your books here on a desk called the psychology of exercise which I found very interesting and as I have a a daughter back to while she’s 10 so. She’s kind of getting into you know that the not wanting to do it anymore because she’s getting very bodily aware. So I thought it’d be interesting to kind of reflect on how women feel exercising today. Um I mean how did you get into like the psychology and sports psychology. How did that come about.
01:56.60
Josie Perry
So I was doing I I was call it a grown up job I was working I’m for a big organization as a communications director. Ah and we went over to Melbourne me my husband in Australia to do a Melbourne iron man and.
02:10.60
ukrunchat
Ok.
02:13.65
Josie Perry
Ah, done most of my training in nice chlorinated twenty metre swimming pools in London and then I stood on the beach in frankston where this race is and oh my goodness the waves were utterly terrifying. Everyone was looking scared ah and the guy in the tanoy said you know you can’t control the waves. But you can control how you feel about them and I was yeah I guess 10 years into doing sport and it was the first time I’d realized I could use my brain so I didn’t really have a body designed particularly well for for triathlon my sport. But. If I used my brain a bit more I might be able to do better and it was just one of those moments that was proper light bulb moment and had a great race and when I came back to the Uk I started looking into kind of sports psychology. She wasn’t really talked about ten years ago um and doing a bit more research into it and a couple of months later I quit my job. I went to do a conversion course at University For A Year I then did a year’s masters in sports psychology um, and then I realized there were another three years of training to do in order to be properly qualified I so had to do that as well. Um, but then ten years later here I am.
03:25.68
ukrunchat
Yeah, gosh what a powerful moment then for you that that kind of meeting how how how a life can change so you obviously really enjoy working with athletes. Do you work mainly with runners then or is it any kind of sports people.
03:30.92
Josie Perry
Um, was.
03:41.53
Josie Perry
I think I’ve worked out I’ve worked with 28 different sports now. Um and lots of this not always just sports a lot of the tech the the tools we use in sports psychology work equally well Across. Um. Ah work a lot in medicine and in education with business people. So exactly the same tools and techniques and approaches we use with athletes also work in business too. So It’s a complete mix I do have a soft spot for runners.
04:13.30
ukrunchat
Yes, yeah, you were running yourself I know you’re coming back from it. Is it a broken toe you’ve had. Yeah, ah we yeah.
04:17.95
Josie Perry
Yes, Christmas eve I tripped over a water bottle that had been left in the middle of all green floor and um with how.
04:27.19
ukrunchat
On We’ve all done it I’ve broken might I want to do they cover before now. Believe it? Yeah, it’s just something silly that puts us out for a while so you’re back you back at it now is it feeling. Okay.
04:30.80
Josie Perry
Um, oh no.
04:37.52
Josie Perry
It yeah I did a run on Monday and it’s still feeling a bit wobbly. So I might have a little bit more time off.
04:42.62
ukrunchat
Yeah, oh yeah, we’ll take it easy. Well today we’re chatting about ultramarathons and and just pushing ourselves a little bit further now and threshold sports have arranged this chat and I was excited when I read about the ultra fifty fifty campaign because. And they’ve set an ambition haven’t they in the threshold trail series to achieve at least a 50% female participation and you know for this this summer’s races and beyond so they they do the race to the king and the race to the zones which are both 100 kiloometer races now. And this particularly interests me and I I have done ultras before and at the moment I kind of I feel like that distance is beyond me at the moment I’m kind of in perimenopauuse. So I’m I’m kind of intrigued to hear your your kind of tips for helping women. First of all, believe they can get to that point where they want to do an ultramarathon and secondly like how we can get the best out of ourselves. So um I think figures. Um, they did give us some figures about female participation in Uk running events. So. It’s actually dropped. Post covid which is quite sad isn’t it to see because it was on the rise I mean what are your thoughts around this just initially.
06:02.28
Josie Perry
I Can see why it dropped post Covid I Think for my perception is women had it really really tough during Covid of taking on far more responsibilities than even before we normally have.
06:05.38
ukrunchat
Me.
06:20.54
Josie Perry
And particularly caring responsibilities and I often know that when I work with men and they’ve got a challenge. They’re really up for they get super excited about that challenge and they’ve entered and they’re off doing it whereas women tend to take or some women will take longer deciding.
06:20.94
ukrunchat
But yes.
06:32.50
ukrunchat
Yes.
06:39.78
Josie Perry
Whether they can justify it and how are they going to cover childcare or other responsibilities and is it fair to spend that money entering something on themselves rather than on their children and so it does seem to be.. There’s a lot of guilt that sometimes goes into doing something. That’s purely for ourselves and the time that will take away from some of the responsibilities and the caring we feel we should be putting into other people. So I can definitely see why post Covid that number went down. Um, what really worries me is it’s still down.
07:15.73
ukrunchat
Yes.
07:17.84
Josie Perry
So we know that in ultradistance racing it’s about 30% of athletes taking part a female um and there’s no reason physiologyly wise why that should be um so I wonder if it is some of those caring responsibilities. Maybe so.
07:37.51
Josie Perry
Some worries about whether it’s it’s possible I Often find guys will enter a race and then figure out how they do the training and how they’re going to fit it in and whether it’s possible but they’ll just get on with that and women will will be much more um, focused on.
07:38.62
ukrunchat
Yes.
07:47.73
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
07:54.96
Josie Perry
Can I do that they almost need to be in a good place first and then they’ll enter a race a man and enter a race and then figure out how on earth you do it totally and in a way that’s a great thing. It’s really important.
08:01.32
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, so we kind of like to be more prepared. Don’t we and know no, we’ve got this. Ah yeah.
08:14.61
Josie Perry
That we don’t just go off and start trying to run huge distances. We do need everybody needs to build up. Um, responsibly and not putting their body under too much pressure and increasing a little bit by little bit and really really preparing exceptionally well so it’s a good thing I.
08:30.72
ukrunchat
Yeah.
08:33.45
Josie Perry
Think we probably need to make more opportunities for women to see what is possible and if you can see others doing it. You’re more likely to be up for it yourself. Um.
08:43.90
ukrunchat
Yes, it’s true. There are some very high profile female ultra runs out there doing really well out there at the moment I mean I’m thinking of you know Jasmine Paris well relatively recently in the spine race. and and Courtney De Walter of course she’s she’s doing phenomenally well I mean what? what a role model for women to go run long distance. So I mean I mean are there any are there any more that kind of spring to mind that you can think of that we can be looking to.
09:01.26
Josie Perry
Um, yeah.
09:12.60
Josie Perry
Oh anyone watching anyone doing the spine last week actually was just how people keep going when if you watch any of the videos that the women put out as they were going Along. It’s mind blowing that you can be. Basically almost at the top of a mountain in snow in a blizzard and you can see about a meter in front of you and you just keep going. They are all amazing. Um, ah and there are lots of different sources of confidence that we can get. But.
09:43.27
ukrunchat
Are.
09:46.18
Josie Perry
Really really good 1 is vicarious confidence so it’s seeing other people that are a bit like us going out and doing things we would like to try and you kind of look at them and go well if they can maybe I can too. Um I am not going to go off and. After watching Lucy Gosage do the spine and watch heavy guys that there’s no way I’m going to go and do the spine but it does make me think or maybe I should stretch myself a bit more maybe I should try something. That’s a bit different or.
10:07.50
ukrunchat
Um, did really well. Yeah, um.
10:18.18
Josie Perry
I Don’t feel 100% comfortable doing Maybe that’s a great thing to do and go and see what’s Possible. So I think the more women we have who are profiled out doing really cool adventures the better and that’s why I Loved what threshold have done where they’ve picked these women. They can just show their journey and all of them are um are amazing but they all had something about them where you’re like oh she’s just had a baby.. She’s got a stonema. She’s done this they’re they’re just like they they’re people. We can all relate to.
10:40.22
ukrunchat
Yes.
10:53.42
Josie Perry
They’re not elite athletes. They’re not the court ni de wals who’s on another planet to most of us the the real role models to me the people that are they’ve got stuff going on in their lives. They’ve got the the people we’d consider normal women but they’re being brave enough to go out and push themselves and see what’s possible.
11:06.36
ukrunchat
Yes.
11:13.23
Josie Perry
They’re the ones that really inspire many of us.
11:13.79
ukrunchat
Yeah, that is such a good point. Actually yeah, it’s not just about the elite athletes is it I Think if we can see something of ourselves in others. That’s so important I mean a lot of a lot of women are kind of fearful of of diving into these races just in case, how can we? How can we kind of tackle. The anxiety and fear with with regard to you know, taking the step into Ultra distance if you got any tips for people. Yeah.
11:40.34
Josie Perry
I said there’s 2 things so one is really really good planning so you never want to get on the start line and be utterly terrified that you don’t know you can do it. You need a whole list of things in the back of your mind about.
11:51.97
ukrunchat
Um, not.
11:58.20
Josie Perry
The goals you set on the way there and how you achieved them the distances you’ve practiced running in the build up the evidence that you can give yourself that you can do difficult things or you can handle setbacks or you can get through discomfort so you want to plan your training. Not just with the physical stuff in mind you want to plan your training with how to give yourself all of that mental evidence that you can do these really hard things and that you’ve got mental skills and a toolkit in the back pocket that you’ve practiced that are going to get you through it and that means you stand on a start line going hey stuff might happen. And an ultra in any long distance race stuff Happens. It’s part of the the excitement is it’s totally Uncontrollable. So stuff will go wrong stuff will be Difficult. We’re never going to expect it to be Perfect. Um. But at least knowing I’ve done everything I possibly could in the buildup can give you a real good confidence that at least you got to the start line in a good place. The other element I think is so important is knowing your why So One of the things I loved watching with the spine was.
12:57.67
ukrunchat
Yeah.
13:11.71
Josie Perry
Lucy was fundraising for move charity. So she is an oncologist but she’s also an athlete and her charity is all about getting people prepared to go into cancer surgery through being much more active throughout dealing with cancer.
13:13.42
ukrunchat
Yes.
13:28.61
Josie Perry
Um, that that makes them happier. It makes them get better outcomes and so she was fundraising for that. So it’s something she’s absolutely passionate about that means when you’re on the top of a mountain and it’s snowing and it’s freezing cold and it and she said at one point she got a garment out and it was totally frozen like. Those moments when you’re like I don’t know how to do this or you’re doing race to the stones race to the king and you’re halfway through and every part of your body is going. This is a stupid thing to do why am I doing this. You’ve got the answer for it. You know why it is so some people that’s for charity. Um, some of the women I met um at the launch event for the fifty fifty ultra they’re doing it because they all do it. So it tends to be There’s a group of them and they got them brilliantly and one enters ah a crazy long race and then gradually picks off everybody else in that group until they’ve all entered it. Um, and I love seeing like the whatsapp groups where everyone’s like oh yeah, I’ll love a go and then suddenly like what we all signed up for this is crazy but because they’re all in it together. There’s that real power of community and belonging and I’m not alone if something goes wrong. There’s somebody by my side.
14:27.18
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
14:46.70
Josie Perry
If the training’s difficult. There’s somebody else that gets how difficult that training is but they will give me the support and so I think if you know your why and you know that you’ve really prepared well then actually you get on the start line and you can almost shrug your shoulders going. Well I’m going to give it my best.
14:51.47
ukrunchat
Yes, yeah.
15:03.84
Josie Perry
It doesn’t happen. It doesn’t happen. But I’ve done everything I can to get into a good place.
15:06.95
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, there’s there’s some really good tips. Thank you I’m just yeah I’m just having flashback to my first marathon I think that’s how I got roped into my first marathon. Actually it was peer pressure. Let’s do it. So I mean that there are.
15:14.78
Josie Perry
Um, yeah, it’s brilliant. Ah.
15:25.45
ukrunchat
Ultras are obviously difficult races aren’t they so there does have to be some kind of acceptance there that it will get hard as well because there is going to be a moment in in any long distance race where you think I can’t do this because you’re you’re tired and you perhaps needs to get some food. Um and how. How can people get over that and well prepare for it to start with and and just kind of understand that that will happen but that is a normal part of a race is that just about the training or is there something else? yeah.
15:56.34
Josie Perry
No I think it’s much more about your mental approach to it So the approach I use as a psychologist is called act and it stands for acceptance and commitment therapy and the goal with it is to notice the things that really worry you and your fears and your concerns. But you’re not trying to fight them. You’re not trying to get rid of Them. You’re not trying to hide them you actively listen to them and you learn to sit alongside them so that you can get more uncomfortable with those thoughts of I can’t do this or this might be embarrassing if it goes wrong or I could fail So We’re not trying to get rid of them and squash them. We’re trying to go. Yeah I could.
16:32.58
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
16:36.21
Josie Perry
It’s a difficult thing to do. But I’m going to do it anyway because and that’s where that y comes in and it could be about our bigger purpose. It could be about the values that we hold very closely to us. It could be about the role model we’re trying to be to others. But it’s all about accepting that we’re trying to do something hard and that’s a good thing. It’s good to push ourselves out of our comfort zone. It’s good to to be able to sit with difficult uncomfortable feelings at times and still do the thing that we want to do So I think a lot of it is about the approach. And and a really simple thing that I see most ultra runners dropping out because of is sugar. So no, not enough say that I ah this the only part of nutrition I ever strive into.
17:19.97
ukrunchat
Right? be because sugar what too much sugar or not enough.
17:29.58
ukrunchat
I Think yes.
17:31.48
Josie Perry
But our brain is about 5% of our body weight it takes 20% of the fuel that we put in our body and mainly glucose that’s what it loves. That’s what fuels it when it doesn’t get enough glucose.
17:40.83
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah.
17:48.60
Josie Perry
We tend to think with the wrong part of our brain instead of being able to access the part of our brain that is very logical and rational and makes good quality decisions. We start to think with the threat part of our brain which is highly emotional has lots of black and white catastrophic thinking.
18:06.50
ukrunchat
Yes.
18:06.37
Josie Perry
And goes a bit Haywire. So What I see tends to happen a lot in Ultra distance running is that somebody will be really good with their nutrition to start with, but they will get to a certain point where they just feel really nauseous and really sick and the thought of having another gel or another bar just makes them. Want to feel really nauseous so they stop and it isn’t the physical element that that necessarily impacts particularly it’s the mental one. So soon as they’ve stopped eating and they’re not fueling their brain their brain very quickly gets to a point of.
18:27.39
ukrunchat
Yeah.
18:43.82
Josie Perry
This is a stupid thing to do why am I doing this this hurts This is uncomfortable. Let’s stop and as soon as that person has pulled out and they’ve eaten. They’re really annoyed with themselves that they stopped so it’s a really simple one but it’s about thinking when you’re doing an ultra. And you’re taking in your nutrition and your fuel it is not about fueling your body necessarily.. It’s just about just as much about fueling your brain.
19:09.62
ukrunchat
Yeah, that is yeah you know I’ve never thought about that that that obviously all makes perfect sense I’ve never considered that the fuel is for the brain as well. But that’s yeah that I’m thinking back to moments in races where I’ve had similar feelings because I’ve not been fueled enough. It’s not the body is it. It’s the brain as well.
19:25.20
Josie Perry
So it’s your brain’s going. Well this is a dumb thing to do let’s quit and at that point your brain goes? Yeah well. Thanks.
19:28.80
ukrunchat
It’s yeah.
19:33.13
ukrunchat
Yeah, so that’s just about being prepared isn’t it and and going through your training and making sure.
19:42.10
Josie Perry
Practicing and training So your really your tummy is really used to everything you’re giving it but also having a really strict plan that you’re going to use in your race and not waylaying from that so stuff will happen in any Ultra race.
19:51.64
ukrunchat
Yeah.
19:57.44
Josie Perry
Because they’re so long because you’re in conditions that are not controllable. Um, if if you want controllable conditions you can. You’re probably going to be able to do like one hundred metres sprint in a stadium once we start to get any longer than that we’re we’re welcoming in a lot of uncontrollables.
20:08.17
ukrunchat
Yeah.
20:15.41
Josie Perry
And the further you go and the more wild conditions you are in the more of that you get but there should be some non-negotiables within your plan and that should always be your fueling strategy.
20:21.68
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s a very good tip. Thank you Josie and so we we chatted briefly about the kind of pressures from society on women in terms of making them feel guilty. And I mean how can we help society get over that as a whole how can how can we get over that. It’s been a long time in the in the training doesn’t it of this thinking. How do we? How can we take small steps to to kind of make things different I guess.
20:46.44
Josie Perry
Oh I Wish we could fix that one adds.
21:00.96
ukrunchat
It’s hard.
21:02.12
Josie Perry
It’s really hard I think at a cultural level. It is far more profiling of female athletes. It’s having far more sponsorship of female athletes. It’s sports science. It’s sports scientists actually doing proper research.
21:13.66
ukrunchat
He.
21:18.80
Josie Perry
On female athletes It stop talking about female athletes and athletes when we see football. We should be talking about men’s football and women’s football instead of football and women’s football. So it’s just all the time I um I marked University papers recently.
21:22.21
ukrunchat
Yes.
21:27.48
ukrunchat
Um, yes, yes, but um.
21:38.41
Josie Perry
And it was fascinating that there was a coach talked about in the case study in it and I would say at least a quarter of the papers assumed the coach was male. It was a generic name could have been either. No one assumed the coach was female.
21:53.19
ukrunchat
Fasting. Yeah.
21:58.12
Josie Perry
So there is still such a kind of hangover that sport is a man’s world and until we actively promote more and more women and make them supervisual I loved seeing um I didn’t get to go to the running show this weekend had massive fomo. Ah but I loved seeing ages.
22:01.47
ukrunchat
Yes.
22:10.65
ukrunchat
Um, yeah, um.
22:16.93
Josie Perry
Were so many women’s names up on the stages. They were hosted by people like Anna Harding and safety power who so it it just puts women front and center of running and that is amazing that makes you go oh this is a world for me, but still when we look at sponsorship levels. When we look at how much coverage you get in media when I read the back pages of any newspaper lucky if there’s 1 story about women’s sport. Um and they’ll be 30 about men’s so so the more people that can can get women out there I work on.
22:55.18
ukrunchat
Yeah.
22:55.38
Josie Perry
On elite Trail team where we’re trying to promote a team of runners going out there doing elite trail running um and we just recruited we actively ensured. We recruited 50% females to that see with every team and if every group and every media group is.
23:06.84
ukrunchat
Yes.
23:12.51
Josie Perry
Is doing that 50% effort then we will have far more women out there that we can all be. We can all get that vicarious confidence from we can start to go this is normal. This is what girls do in school. This is what women get to do in their spare time and we start to change that.
23:21.65
ukrunchat
Yes.
23:32.24
Josie Perry
It just takes a really long time.
23:32.30
ukrunchat
Yeah, um, yeah, it does sadly doesn’t it. It’s so important and I guess now is the point to mention it’s the the whole debate that comes up every time we see something in the news about somebody being attacked while they’re at running or it’s all about women’s safety isn’t it. You know, do women. I Guess a lot of us do fear going out sometimes in the dark or on our own that can have an impact can’t it.
23:50.36
Josie Perry
Type la massively I am I’m in the finishing I was working on a British Athletics Camp I doing some online work and I finished about six o’clock on a Sunday night and I thought oh I’d love to go out for a run. Husband’s looking at me like I’m crazy like well why not and I’m like because it’s dark and it’s winter and I’m not safe and it was honestly like a little light bulb and he was like you have to think about that. Don’t you that’s like yeah we all do and a guy has twice as much training time because they.
24:23.18
ukrunchat
Um, I’m yeah um.
24:27.79
Josie Perry
Can just go out and run whenever they want and it can probably wear headphones. Um, whereas we have to think much more carefully about where we’re going to be safe where we run at what time we do it and that massively cuts down your training time. So.
24:42.62
ukrunchat
Yeah p.
24:45.38
Josie Perry
A woman trying to train over winter trying to train for an ultra is going to struggle to fit in some of those long runs to be able to get them in daylight hours when they’re not supposed to be working or picking up children from school or all the other things that are on your plate. Um, you have to.
25:00.90
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
25:03.70
Josie Perry
Feel really confident or feel like you’ve got lots of safety mechanisms in place to be able to go and just get those hours in.
25:09.82
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, you do don’t you I mean I’ve I’ve I run with my dog quite a lot I took her out today actually but still had a moment where we were running through and awards out into the golf course and there were no golfers about today for some reason and there was a band part there with a man in it and your mind. Starts playing tricks on you doesn’t it and as I ran past he put his van into reverse and followed me up the road and I think he was just driving up the road and I was just in his way I had kind of nowhere to go but I was like oh my god I don’t like this so I kind of nipped onto the actual green.
25:29.65
Josie Perry
Um, Thomas.
25:44.81
ukrunchat
Um, of the golf course and kind of and he drove off and I was kind of relieved. But yeah, it does It’s I do seem to have these moments as I’m sure we all do where we just kind of it’s worst case scenario isn’t it and.
25:53.22
Josie Perry
Yeah, totally and then the next time you’re supposed to go out for a run.. There’s just that little bit more doubt in your brain and if you’re already on the edge of do I Really want to run or not.. It’s really cold. The weather’s all full I’ve got. Ah, to do list of 30 things that I should be doing. It’s one of those things that makes it a little bit harder to go out and do it.
26:10.48
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
26:15.80
ukrunchat
Yeah, but I guess that’s where the power of groups come in doesn’t it. You know if we’ve got a group of other people to train with for these for these events we can get out there safely.
26:20.13
Josie Perry
Height Yes, and there’s some really really good research out there about the power of of training with other people if you’re going to do it. This is a bit manipulative. But you want people that are a little bit better than you so you don’t want people that are worse than you because they’ll pull you down and you don’t want people that are too good because you’ll just feel like you’re holding them back or you’ll actually run too fast and end up getting injured. But ideally if you can swing it. You want people that are a little bit better than you. Um.
26:37.56
ukrunchat
Yes.
26:55.35
Josie Perry
And then they help your performance as well as giving you a safe way to run and just a more enjoyable way to run with other people.
27:01.71
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, just yeah, just I think it gives you that motivation to get out as well. Doesn’t it ruin me Love yeah I enjoy I know I struggle to get out on my own now which is where the dog comes in very useful. So ah yes I mean.
27:04.68
Josie Perry
If tightly.
27:10.19
Josie Perry
Yeah I was to um, my way at the moment is I do drop I drop my daughter off at school and then I have to run home because that it’s none of the getting out the house bit. It’s like it’s just a lot quicker to if it’s gonna take me half an hour to walk.
27:21.68
ukrunchat
Um, okay yeah.
27:28.46
ukrunchat
Yes.
27:28.52
Josie Perry
I might as well run for half an hour and get my run in. So if you know that you struggle to get out the door or to do certain things you can really do some planning of like how do I give myself no choice.
27:36.32
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? I mean should we get into just a little bit about just mental strategies generally for completing an ultra. So We’re kind of we’ve we’ve got to that point where we’re we’re entering an ultra. Um, and there are going to be some tough tough moments in it and but how how do we kind of set ourselves. You know a challenging but achievable goal for that. What’s what’s the kind of process for kind of how we’re going to do and how we’re going to plan for it because.
27:57.32
Josie Perry
Um, yeah.
28:12.62
ukrunchat
This stage we’ve got no idea if it’s our first ultra How we’re going to perform in it. How I guess.
28:14.50
Josie Perry
Yeah now. So I think we can separate it into the the preparation for it and then the tools you might want for actually doing it and they’re going to be quite different preparation for it. You want 3 types of goals that you’re working on.
28:19.77
ukrunchat
Um, yeah, and yes.
28:32.70
ukrunchat
Gripe.
28:32.25
Josie Perry
So you want an outcome goal and an outcome goal is something that’s really motivational. Gets you super excited. Almost like the twisty tummy Can’t wait till I do that but gonna be quite uncontrollable So that might be finishing your first ultra distance. Um.
28:40.66
ukrunchat
S.
28:50.94
Josie Perry
And you go through it might be coming top 10 in my my age category or something so it it could be a performance goal. It could be a participation and finishing it. Goal. They’re great for motivation. Not great actually for working towards because they’re so uncontrollable. So. We tend to break that down into performance goals. So that might be looking at a race to the stones. It’s a hundred kilometers I think um well I don’t do long long distance and right what would it take me what would i.
29:11.48
ukrunchat
Right.
29:19.80
ukrunchat
Um, yes, but.
29:27.39
Josie Perry
Feel like I’ve done well on this type of course looking at what other people have done who are similar to me with the amount of training time I can put in it would be X amount of hours. So if I can get to a point where I feel I can run that distance in that time. Then I’m on track to being able to achieve my outcome goal So you’ve got something’s a bit more kind of concrete and something can break down apart and then the magic bit comes when you get the process goals and these are when you pull the performance into little parts of like well how do I run that distance in that time.
29:45.63
ukrunchat
Um, yeah, yeah.
30:04.30
Josie Perry
And that might be at least 2 long runs a week of at least x distance at least 1 group run where I do x y or z at least um or a session with a nutritionist so that I understand my fueling strategy and how I can fuel it all really well.
30:17.19
ukrunchat
Yes.
30:24.40
Josie Perry
Um, 3 times a week doing strength conditioning or stretching work in the gym to ensure I reduce my risk of injury so they become actions that are all doable and all go into your training plan so that you’re like you can see I’ve done all this stuff.
30:33.90
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
30:43.10
Josie Perry
And I know all this stuff is likely to get me towards that performance and there’s a good chance if I can achieve that performance I will achieve my overall goal. But you’re not thinking about the overall goal because the overall goal is terrifying. It’s threatened you yeah Meg you’re looking at it like whoa I can do that.
30:54.80
ukrunchat
Um, yeah, that’s huge isn’t it a bit scary. Yeah yeah, yeah.
31:03.10
Josie Perry
That sounds enormous. But if you break it down into yes that’s enormous, but in order to achieve that this is what I have to do in the sixteen weeks building up to it then you’re ticking off things every day and when you kick off things on your training plan. You get a little buzz of dopamine your reward chemical that makes you feel great and you get to see.
31:12.51
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
31:18.63
ukrunchat
Yes.
31:22.75
Josie Perry
You are doing all of the things necessary to get you achieving that big thing so it takes a lot here away. Yes, say so that I think is really important in the buildup so that you can stand on the start line going look at all the stuff I’ve done.
31:25.71
ukrunchat
Yeah, and that help your belief I Guess doesn’t it your self-belief that you can do it? Yeah important. Yeah yeah, okay. Yeah, all those things I’ve ticked off Yeah, that’s very satisfying itself isn’t it Yeah, tick that.
31:42.34
Josie Perry
these these all yeah hopefully yeah, um, and then in the race itself. There’s 2 big areas to think about and this stems from kind of basic biology. So when sports science began. Think around one hundred and thirty years ago now they started really trying to study how people could get the best out of their body and they used to think that you would put fuel in your body and it would share itself around and you would use up your muscles until there was no fuel left in them and then you’d collapse. Um. And obviously we’ve got a bit more sophisticated than that now and and they actually do things like muscle biopsies when someone says they’re at total exhaustion and they found that when they do that. There’s still about 30% of energy left in your muscles even when you feel like you can go absolutely no further to simply remembering that fact.
32:20.49
ukrunchat
Yes.
32:37.45
ukrunchat
Yes.
32:39.54
Josie Perry
Some of my athletes have found very helpful that when their body is screaming at them I can’t do anymore. They’re like you 30% laughed you’re absolutely fine. So if there is 30% laughed in those muscles. There is something else that is stopping people.
32:47.34
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
32:55.75
Josie Perry
And the latest theory on this is a biocycle social model which says that to push ourselves further we first need to increase motivation and when that is totally maxed out. We need to reduce our perception of effort.
33:07.30
ukrunchat
Okay.
33:14.82
Josie Perry
We need to make what we’re doing feel easier so to increase your motivation. Um, you need a really good reason to be running so that’s your why right? But so if I was to give you a million pounds
33:15.21
ukrunchat
How do we do that? Then do we go a bit slow.
33:23.74
ukrunchat
Um, yes, which we’ve already asked about yeah um.
33:32.91
Josie Perry
Finish race to the stones I’d reckon. You’d do it. So um, we can up the motivation pretty high. However, if I was to say I’m going to give you £2000000 that wouldn’t really make any difference.
33:35.12
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, that’s definitely an incentive. Yeah.
33:49.49
ukrunchat
No yeah.
33:51.51
Josie Perry
Hopefully unless you’re a millionaire an extra million is probably not going to make that much difference so we can definitely max out our motivation at points of like yeah this is as much as I have to put into what I’m doing and at that point we need to reduce perception of effort. So we need to make things feel easier. Um.
34:04.87
ukrunchat
Right.
34:10.83
Josie Perry
1 of the things that’s used a lot by runners is caffeine. So caffeine doesn’t just help give us that kind of that almost feeling of physical energy and alertness one of the things it does is actually reduce how difficult things feel so it can be incredibly helpful.
34:12.62
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
34:29.86
Josie Perry
In the later stages of a race to help things feel a little bit easier. Um, another one is um, smiling. She’s really simple but I love it. Um, where the research suggests when we smile whilst we’re running.
34:38.34
ukrunchat
Yes.
34:48.87
Josie Perry
It It reduces the um ah or improves the efficiency of our running but it also tricks our brain into thinking what we’re doing isn’t as difficult as it is so it reduces subception of effort. Um, and this one’s tricky in Ultras because there aren’t many supporters in most of them.
34:56.52
ukrunchat
Yeah, okay.
35:07.10
Josie Perry
But there’s additional research that says when and somebody smiles at you. You also tend to do better so they put cyclists on Lab bikes and they flashed up and subconsciously pictures of smiling people and grimacing people.
35:14.10
ukrunchat
Yeah, okay.
35:26.10
Josie Perry
And the people that saw the smiley people were able to go I think 12% longer than the people that got the grimacy ones. So yeah, so it’s not so helpful on an ultra because there’s far fewer people watching.
35:31.19
ukrunchat
Wow, That’s that’s a big difference. Yeah.
35:41.76
Josie Perry
But certainly for like big city Marathons big five k’s 10 k to be able to look into the crowds and smile at people and have them smile back is a really nice boost and to build it into a mantra smile. Every mile is a really lovely one every time you go under a mar marker or to the side of 1 you smile. Tricks your brain um other things like sorry and what’s your favorite.
36:02.87
ukrunchat
Yeah, oh that’s nice. However, yeah, do you use as ah, do you use Mantra Elf. Do you use Mantras I have used them before and they are effective Actually yeah and it’s usually. And just keep moving I Just kind of repeat it to myself just keep moving and it does work it kind of gets my brain in in the rhythm kind of say it rhythmically it does help? yeah.
36:21.16
Josie Perry
Now.
36:27.90
Josie Perry
Yeah, that there’s 2 types we tend to use and both of them then again help reduce the perception of effort. So one will be a motivational mantra and it’s usually reminding yourself why you’re doing it? Um, so that’s particularly relevant if you’re doing something for charity.
36:35.11
ukrunchat
Yes.
36:43.54
ukrunchat
Yeah.
36:45.60
Josie Perry
And you’re running for charity thinking about those people that you’re doing it for is very good if there’s a specific goal in mind. Um I’ll often work with people that are trying to qualify for something or younger athletes that are trying to get their first england vest or a Gb vest and having that in mind for them is incredibly helpful of like.
36:50.43
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
37:05.43
Josie Perry
When your body wants to back off a little bit but you’re like I want that vest I want that vest helps keep you going the other type of Mantra is an instructional one. So like you’ll just keep moving. Um which can either be an instruction to your body which is quite.
37:07.68
ukrunchat
Um, yes, um, yes.
37:17.69
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
37:24.16
Josie Perry
Generic keep moving one foot in front of the other keep pushing forward or it can be quite technical. So for me the technical one I have is head up because no when I’m tired in a race. My head starts to go down I slouch I don’t get as much oxygen in my body.
37:32.27
ukrunchat
Okay.
37:41.00
Josie Perry
And I’m shuffling along I’m more likely to get injured or trip was if you lift your head up your shoulders. Go back. Chest goes forward. You lift your legs and you run far better and you pick up the pace without even meaning to.
37:53.69
ukrunchat
Yeah, that’s but in fact I’ve used a similar one before it’s it’s usually amppis down because I hunch my shoulders when I get tired so it’s um it and that’s that’s from yeah, my pallato’s teacher and so thank Louis for that. Yeah amp its down.
37:56.76
Josie Perry
Um, yeah, brilliant. So.
38:07.33
Josie Perry
And it will be different for each of us depending on the weaknesses that tend to arise when we get tired went that shoulders or neck. Um and the distances we do So for my sprinters that I work with a lot of theirs is about pumping arms push on push arms or high knees.
38:13.14
ukrunchat
Um, you know.
38:15.72
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah.
38:25.68
Josie Perry
Um, so it would be very adapted but it’s the I always say it’s the 1 thing if your coach was watching you in that moment. What’s the thing they would yell at you that’s kind of a really good instructional mantra because it helps improve your technique which then helps you push yourself harder but still reducing the perception of effort.
38:33.80
ukrunchat
Um, yes, yeah.
38:38.30
ukrunchat
Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah, that’s really Interesting. So What about a visualization is is that a useful tool people can use. How would they go about kind of starting to make that helpful in an ultra.
38:45.22
Josie Perry
Doesn’t feel so hard because you’ve you’ve got good technique.
38:59.39
Josie Perry
Ah I think visualization is probably the most underrated mental skill. There is I wrote a book a couple of years ago um for teenage athletes called I can and in it I interviewed 10 lead athletes about kind of different elements.
39:04.60
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
39:17.59
Josie Perry
Their approach to their sport and almost all of them said one of the most important mental skills they had was visualization and yet it’s probably the one athletes like working on the least because it actually takes up a lot more time than you imagine it is not closing your eyes and daydreaming.
39:28.40
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
39:36.67
Josie Perry
About having the best race of your life. It is. It’s very technical and it’s very much about um, planning exactly how you would want the most difficult part of your race to go So we actually write a script for it.
39:38.97
ukrunchat
Um, nice.
39:53.22
ukrunchat
Right? okay.
39:55.50
Josie Perry
And when it is most effective is when all your senses are engaged so it’s based on this idea of functionalquivalence that in your brain when you learn how to do a skill you do it over and over again and your brain neurons connect in the correct way. Over time. It becomes a habit and you do it Automatically The idea of visualization is that our brain can still make those connections. Even if we’re not physically doing it. But if we are imagining it in the right way with all our senses engaged so when we write a script. We would be writing about what the athlete can see as they’re running through that environment what they would be hearing what they can smell what they can taste what they can touch like the stickiness of the hand when you’ve got gel on it or um, the smell as you run through the countryside and you’ve gone through fields with manure on them.
40:43.40
ukrunchat
Yeah.
40:51.94
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
40:52.29
Josie Perry
Um, like they might feel quite obscure but it really brings it to life. There’s a race I do most years in Windsor Windsor Triathlon and every year because it’s in quite a popular part of the thames you can taste the diesel.
41:08.90
Josie Perry
And all I need to do is smell diesel anywhere and I’m suddenly transported back to being in that river. So yeah I am so smell and taste can really really bring things alive so I will often get an athlete watching a Youtube video.
41:12.90
ukrunchat
Oh Wow Yeah, very powerful sense isn’t it. Yeah.
41:25.86
Josie Perry
Or even like the promotional race videos that are made of parts of the courses. Ideally, they’ll go out and do bits of the course. So if you’re doing something like and no race to the stones and it’s the big race of your year. This is the 1 you really care about. Go out over a couple of weekends and do different sections of it. Really really get to know it so that you yeah so that your imagery is really realistic because the more realistic it is the more when you get to that point in the race. Your brain goes. Oh I feel comfortable.
41:43.94
ukrunchat
Yeah, get a real figure. Yeah.
42:00.25
Josie Perry
I’ve done this before I know what I’m doing This isn’t like nothing’s gonna be thrown at me out of the blue I can do this so we want to write a script. We want to make that script super realistic. Um, and then we want to record the script and listen to it a couple of times a day.
42:00.51
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
42:18.86
Josie Perry
And you only want it to be 2 or 3 minutes long so you don’t want it to You’re not speeding it up. You want to do it in real time so it can be really good to think about a part of the race if you’re worried about the technical aspects. If you’re doing some and know some downhill running where you know there’s going to be like rocks and stones and you’re a bit worried about that you can practice downhill running on difficult um surfaces as your visualization or if you’re worried about seventy miles in one hundred mile race tends to be the point where.
42:35.45
ukrunchat
Um, you.
42:51.98
Josie Perry
Your brain goes stupid thing to do let’s stop. So perhaps you want your visualization to be about that seventy mile point and how you want to practice when your brain says I don’t want to do this anymore. How are you going to keep going and you can practice keeping going 2 or 3 times a day in the buildup.
42:57.88
ukrunchat
Yeah.
43:10.50
Josie Perry
That when you get to that point you’re much better equipped to be able to go No I know I can carry on I’m going to.
43:16.90
ukrunchat
Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s really fascinating actually so in this kind of and script and the recording that you do for yourself. Are you talking in the first person or are you actually talking to yourself is in you will do this? What is there? Ah is there a right way or a wrong way to do that.
43:25.24
Josie Perry
Are.
43:30.67
Josie Perry
No, that’s a really interesting question because there’s no best practice that I have seen so some people like to watch from above and see themselves as the little runner on the trail and what they’re doing and other people like to see it through their own eyes I’m.
43:33.98
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
43:38.52
ukrunchat
Um, yes.
43:48.52
Josie Perry
And I’ve yet see research there is research into it. But I’ve yet to see one that says one is better than the other um or for different environments I think it tends to be what works for you? How do you like to see things.
43:52.74
ukrunchat
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, oh fascinated? Well yeah, I’ve never tried it that way I’ve just kind of tried the actual visualization so I’ll definitely give that version a ago and so yeah, if you if you’re listening out there and I’ve tried it. Let us know. How you’ve got on and I just want to ask you 1 more question Josie while you’re on because I’ve I’ve experienced a couple of occasions during races where I’ve had panic attacks. Do you have any advice for a getting over them quickly and b just. Preventing them really kind of preparing for them and avoiding them because it’s not a nice place to be when it happens. No.
44:32.63
Josie Perry
Yeah, it’s not I within the whole podcast to go through the reason why they appear? Um, and maybe we can do something in future where we go through that whole kind of why people get performance anxiety.
44:46.20
ukrunchat
Um, ah the next and yeah, right? Okay, so that’s quite common. Yeah.
44:48.49
Josie Perry
Um, and and that’s what I spend most of my time working with athletes on is performance anxiety. Yeah totally um, particularly for a specific group of people very intelligent perfectionists. So finally, you’re quite perfectionistic. You really really want to do well.
44:59.23
ukrunchat
Yeah, right? Okay, yeah, um.
45:06.92
Josie Perry
Um, it tends to trigger much higher levels of performance anxiety. Ah so we won’t go into the why they happen because that needs lots of time but there are 2 really cool tricks I tend to use when they happen. Um, and the the very short version is that when you’re feeling anxious.
45:10.75
ukrunchat
Um, yeah, okay.
45:24.17
Josie Perry
Your brain sends two chemicals around your body in order to handle the threat that it is found cortisol and adrenaline and 1 of the places they tend to go is your heart rate and your breathing rate speed up. So.
45:34.75
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
45:38.23
Josie Perry
Most people most writers certainly will probably have a respiratory rate of about thirteen fourteen breaths a minute if you get super anxious before a race or even in a race. My breathing rate probably got to about twenty breaths a minute and the problem with that is. Threat system in your brain is constantly scanning your body to make sure there’s no threats and if the breathing rate suddenly goes super high. It goes look breathing rates high. There’s a threat and it sends around more adrenaline and cortisol and you get into a really horrible cycle which is what tends to cause the panic attack.
45:56.82
ukrunchat
Yes.
46:02.32
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
46:11.87
Josie Perry
So there is a breathing technique that I find super effective called colorful breathing and the idea is you breathe in through your nose a color for 4 seconds you hold for 2 and you breathe out a different color through your mouth. 6 seconds so you can pick whatever colors you want so the the slow breathing gets you down to about five or six breaths a minute so it stops triggering the continued release of the adrenaline in the cortisol um and the colors.
46:41.44
ukrunchat
Ripe.
46:49.50
Josie Perry
Mean you’re focusing on the colors. So your brain stops ruminating about all the things that are going to go wrong because there’s no head base left to ruminate. You’re just focused on colors. So usually 5 or 6 rounds of that are really good to being able to start to slow everything down so your brain stops panicking.
46:54.95
ukrunchat
Um I say yeah, um.
47:08.83
Josie Perry
Also a really good tool to use if you can’t sleep the night before a race or any night and I use it a lot with my seven year old if she can’t sleep. We do colorful breathing and she gets to pick the color. Yeah where she picks the colors. So then they feel in control.
47:12.54
ukrunchat
Um, yeah, ah yeah, ah I look a.
47:24.23
ukrunchat
Yes.
47:26.61
Josie Perry
But it’s a really nice pattern that they can start to follow and then fall asleep in line with because it’s basically tricking your brain into thinking. It’s a lot calmer and more chilled than it actually is so that one’s really effective. The other one is a grounding technique because what makes us anxious is usually. Not anything physical because most of our lives Now. We don’t have physical threats. It’s psychological threats and the psychological threat is usually the outcome that we’re worried about and what that means about us and our identity. So.
47:50.81
ukrunchat
Yes.
48:02.74
Josie Perry
We want to move away from thinking about outcomes and focusing on what’s going on now in the moment what kind of tasks. Do we need to do and so one nice way to do that is um, called a senses ladder because one of the other things that happens when your your threat system is triggered and and you’ve got the adrenaline and cortisol flooding your body.
48:15.38
ukrunchat
Um.
48:22.50
Josie Perry
Your senses switch off because if you’re being chased by somebody. You don’t need to smell or taste or touch anything you just need to be able to run really fast in a straight line and so we want to switch back on your senses So to do this one. You look around you.
48:29.45
ukrunchat
No.
48:41.30
Josie Perry
And anyone listening to this can do this at home right now and we want you to say out loud 5 things that you can see 4 things you can touch and what they feel like so you’re actively having to really feel to be able to go now. My laptop is cold and hard.
48:57.70
ukrunchat
You get.
49:01.11
Josie Perry
Um, three things you can smell that one is easier outside than in um, two things you can hear so you’re tuning into what’s going on outside around you 1 thing you can taste and if you do those it switches your senses back on and again, you’re.
49:12.30
ukrunchat
Um, yeah.
49:19.89
Josie Perry
Your your cognitive focus is on the things you can see and where you are right now and it stops it shooting forward to these are all the things that could possibly go wrong and how it might impact my own self-identity. So try those ones and see a you get on.
49:32.38
ukrunchat
Yeah, fascinating. Yes I will do thankfully that’s not happened to me for a while but I thought well while I’ve got you here. Yeah, other people might find that useful too. So yeah, please let us know. Well thank you Josie. It’s been absolutely and fascinating chatting to you and all about the the kind of. Psychological side of running today. It’s it’s not a not a topic that we often delve into but we should definitely do more and so just remind us about your new book that’s out.
49:52.22
Josie Perry
Thank you.
50:03.80
Josie Perry
Um, it’s called the 10 pillars of success and you can hopefully get it anywhere.
50:06.50
ukrunchat
Yeah, and where can people find you on social media and online if they want to find out.
50:10.60
Josie Perry
So I have a website which is performance in mind dotco.uk and there’s a section on there called performance zone. So there’s lots of worksheets and blogs and toolkits you can you can take off there and and help yourself develop that kind of psychological side. Um, and then I am on Twitter far too much or x now. Um as Josephine Perry or I’m Josephine parry 76 on Instagram.
50:32.61
ukrunchat
Of yes, the.
50:38.17
ukrunchat
Yeah, are lovely. Well thank you again for coming on and thank you to threshold sports and just remind you for everybody that the threshold the sorry the threshold trail series is happening this summer you can find out more ah wwwwww.thresholdtraileries.com and so thank you very much.
51:00.31
Josie Perry
Um, thank you.
